SXSW: An Interview With The Team Behind CITIZEN SLEUTH

Cinema Scholars’ coverage of SXSW 2023 continues with an interview from Citizen Sleuth director Chris Kasick and his documentary subject/collaborator, Emily Nestor. Following the film’s World Premiere at SXSW on 3/11, Citizen Sleuth is screening twice more on 3/14 and 3/17.

Introduction

You’d have to be living under a rock not to know about the true crime craze exploding in the podcast world. Now, practically anyone with a quality microphone, research savvy, and a knack for storytelling is capable of bringing even more of these cautionary tales to light. Much like in the early Wild West days of the internet, however, the established rules of journalism don’t always apply. And the line between truth-seeking and profiting is easy to cross. Chris Kasick’s debut feature documentary Citizen Sleuth takes a candid look at true crime podcasting through the eyes of Mile Marker 181 creator Emily Nestor.

With no formal training in criminology or journalism, Nestor sets out to investigate a local accidental death notoriously rumored to be a murder. With Holmesian wit and Colombo’s confidence, Nestor systematically dissects the original investigation as well as her own questions regarding the case. As the procedural unfolds in tandem with her podcasting adventures, Nestor’s pursuit of the truth becomes much more convoluted than she ever expected. 

Cinema Scholars’ Rebecca Elliott caught up with Citizen Sleuth director Chris Kasick and Emily Nestor at SXSW 2023 to talk about their timely doc.

Interview

Rebecca Elliott:

Chris Kasick:

Thanks for having us.

Rebecca Elliott:

I’m a true crime person too, so it appealed to me in that way. Likewise, the way the story got flipped too was so intriguing. Chris, how did you first hear about Emily and her podcast and why did you feel like it would make a compelling debut documentary?

Chris Kasick:

So it was 2018. Emily was in season one of her podcast. Producer Fabiola Washburn and her husband Jared Washburn, they’re into True Crime podcasts. She’d heard that My Favorite Murder did a promotion of Mile Marker 181. So Fabiola listened to the first season of Mile Marker 181. Or half of it. Then she’s like, “This is a really compelling character, and it sounds like a crazy whodunit case.”

I had lived in the Middle Ohio Valley for a number of years. That’s where I went to college. So I was familiar with the region. met Emily when I went out there just to do a little research. And it’s weird talking about it with her, but she gave a character that I knew had a story to tell. So, I got wrapped up in the story and the initial research thing, and I had a lot of questions.

I was like, “All right, I’m coming back in a month with a small crew, and let’s just see what happens.” And that’s how it went. So in the summer of 2019, we committed. We were all in, and we lived up there with Emily. And it just is one of those stories that began as one thing, and as we got further into the investigation, it turned into another. And it wasn’t anything either of us had predicted at the beginning. But it evolved and we were both on this journey together to try to find the truth to this complicated story.

Rebecca Elliott:

Yeah. Undoubtedly, you guys went on an extensive journey. Obviously, I don’t want to get into spoilers. Meanwhile, I’m like, oh, how do you talk about a thing and not talk about the thing?

Chris Kasick:

I say secret? I said there was a secret in the case, and we didn’t know how to reveal that as an audience.

Rebecca Elliott:

Right. Right.

Chris Kasick:

Even in the making of the documentary, I didn’t know how to reveal it was this thing. And so it was the journey that Emily went on with her podcast when she found new information about what had likely occurred and didn’t know how to present it to the audience. I had the same situation with the documentary. It was like, “Do we even cover this?” Like, ethically, is this right?

Emily Nestor:

That’s the big question.

Rebecca Elliott:

Then Emily, were you hesitant about letting him follow you around with the camera and record everything? I mean, what were your feelings on it at first, and then how did that all evolve?

Emily Nestor:

Well, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think your intent was to cover it in a very different way. But the way that it-

Chris Kasick:

It was a whodunit. I thought it was a true crime thing.

Emily Nestor:

Yeah. The way it played out. And I always joke around that if I knew what I was signing up for, I wouldn’t have signed up for it.

Rebecca Elliott:

All in all, me neither.

Emily Nestor:

Yeah, exactly. That’s how we both feel. But there were periods of on and off where it was just like, oh, deep regret. And then there were periods where it’s like, no, this is something that needs to be told. So, it’s been both.

Chris Kasick:

I felt bonded. So when we got into this and she started the investigation by recreating the McDonald’s drive-thru and the breaking of the glass. And the microfilm article? There were clues that she was doing in real-time that weren’t adding up to the narrative that was being put out there for a decade. Both of us were like, “What’s going on?” Then Emily’s like, “We need to bring in the experts.” She brought in one of the world’s biggest cold case experts, and he revealed a little more to her about it. Then we were caught in this situation where I’m like, “What is this? How do we even…”

Emily Nestor:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Kasick:

And so I didn’t know what we were getting into either, but-

Emily Nestor:

As I said, nebulous. I think that speaks to the case itself. It’s very nebulous. There are a million directions you can go with that.

Chris Kasick:

It really speaks to the power of narrative and what true crime podcasting is. That there was a narrative in the Middle Ohio Valley that this was a murder for a long time. It was overwhelming to me, to you, and to every local person. But really the pursuit of truth in Emily digging into that. And as I said to the victim’s grandfather, we’re following Emily’s investigation. When that started not adding up we were both like, how do you tell this to an audience of millions when you flip something like this?

Emily Nestor:

Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Kasick:

What are the rules of engagement for just doing this when you have commitments to a network? And it’s sort of, as journalists, that’s something we struggle with all the time.

Rebecca Elliott:

Emily, did it change your dynamic when he joined? Because you had already been going for a while and then he pops in? Consequently, did this change your dynamic as far as your research strategy?

Emily Nestor:

It definitely changed in terms of just the timeline of production for things. Because of course, he’s trying to do his job and capture things in real-time. And I’m like when I sit down to write an episode, it doesn’t just… I’m not Stephen King. I can’t just sit down and write. So in terms of the writing and the timing, it was like, all right, now I have to do this thing. It sort of didn’t organically unfold like it had when it was just me in my office at 3:00 AM.

Chris Kasick:

Yeah. But also, it of course changed relationship dynamics with people that we’re involved with in the podcast.

Rebecca Elliott:

Right. And you guys touched on in the film the inherently exploitative nature of True Crime. And as a horror film fan, it’s the same sort of problematic scenario. You’re like, “Why do I love this stuff so much?” But it is, it’s a morbid fascination.

Emily Nestor:

Yes.

Rebecca Elliott:

And so of course, Citizen Sleuth is even more meta because now you’re in a way exploiting Emily. I hate to use the word exploitation.

Chris Kasick:

No, I know, but that-

Rebecca Elliott:

I wish there was a better term for it.

Emily Nestor:

No, I agree. I get it.

Chris Kasick:

That’s like the trick. Because she’s like how can you do it? There’s a line that Emily says is “All journalism is exploitation.” And that is the central argument in journalism right now. I think something that wasn’t obvious is the death of local journalism in the Mid-Ohio Valley. The newspapers, the TV stations, used to be these powerful things. Now there’s a gap. And people like Emily, who works at Buffalo Wild Wings can come in and have a megaphone of followers and what’s the responsibility there? That’s something she was learning in real-time.

Emily Nestor:

And is it not, and this is touched on in the film, that code of ethics? That’s not…

Chris Kasick:

Yeah.

Rebecca Elliott:

It’s very blurred. The lines are very blurred.

Chris Kasick:

And it wasn’t obvious. At first, it wasn’t like, “Emily is filling this local journalism gap.” When we showed up at the library [for a podcast event in the film], I think we were both surprised. It was the biggest event besides… bigger than Bigfoot.

Emily Nestor:

We beat Bigfoot is what they were telling us. Like “She beat Bigfoot.”

Rebecca Elliott:

Nice.

Chris Kasick:

We were just like, “Wow. There’s this yearning for local news.” Local journalism is just not there anymore.

Emily Nestor:

But I do think it’s interesting that Bigfoot was the contender that I was up against. I think that says kind of a lot. That who I was battling was Bigfoot.

Rebecca Elliott:

That’s great. That says so much. Well, like I said, I’m a true-crime fan too. I listen to a lot of popular podcasts. Paul Holes is a celebrity to me. I’m like, whoa. Nevertheless, there’s another side to all of this. If you’re truly a Citizen Sleuth and seeking truth, then you’re really seeking the truth no matter what that truth is. And it still makes a fascinating story regardless, even though it might not always be what your expectation was, originally.

Emily Nestor:

Yeah.

Chris Kasick:

I thought it turned into a better story. At first, I was like I don’t know if this is a story. And I’m like, oh, the reckoning of that. The internal struggle of conscience of someone to change a narrative that was out there. That is the code of ethics of journalism that’s not on its face. It’s not obvious, but it comes down to these individual decisions. I wanted to make an intimate movie about conscience, and that wasn’t obvious until halfway through. And it was all we kept coming back to. We would yell at each other, it was this and that. But we have to get the truth out.

Rebecca Elliott:

Yeah, no matter what that truth is.

Emily Nestor:

Yeah.

Rebecca Elliott:

Incidentally, did you have any copycats while you were working? Because you were doing some real investigating, and then I know a lot of podcasts will piggyback on somebody else’s hard work. Did you experience that at all?

Emily Nestor:

So, to be totally honest with you, at the point when I started really getting into the thick of the podcast once, probably midway through season one, I don’t think I was listening to anything. I think that’s maybe why I had success. I was just tunnel vision on what I was doing. And I don’t know if there were copycats-

Chris Kasick:

I do.

Emily Nestor:

Because I stopped listening to other stuff, and after the podcast ended, I don’t think I’ve consumed any true crime since then. I don’t think I’ve watched a single doc or listened to a single podcast since then.

Rebecca Elliott:

Wow. Wow.

Chris Kasick:

And they’re coming at her as the bad guy.

Emily Nestor:

As it was explained to me by someone pretty successful in true crime, following a controversy, everyone will jump on that case. And that was one of the things that really put me off from the genre was the fact that there was an opportunity to correct the narrative. And instead of doing that, the true-crime community used the story as more fodder for that same narrative.

Rebecca Elliott:

Especially with the Murdaugh murderers dominating the mainstream news, none of this is ever slowing down. And with podcasting still exploding, what is your hope for the future of the industry and genre moving forward?

Emily Nestor:

I don’t know if I have a short answer.

Rebecca Elliott:

That’s fine, yeah. We still have a few more minutes.

Emily Nestor:

So I think I’ve lost really almost all respect for the genre. Because during that time period, there were people that knew what the reality was of how things were unfolding. They could have used their platforms and could have spoken up. I’ve watched people who started in true crime, who have personal ties go in with good ambitions, and then put cases behind a paywall on Patreon. I find it interesting that… Who deserves exposure behind a paywall? Who are you exposing? If your intent is to put out more information to help propel a case when there are only people behind that paywall accessing it.

Rebecca Elliott:

Right. Right.

Emily Nestor:

And I have an overwhelming…this sounds really pessimistic. But the reality is I just have an overwhelming lack of faith in the community and the consumers to look at cases. And I was guilty of it myself, and that’s how I know because I lived it. But now I’ll look at other cases and I’ll be like, that’s one of these cases. This is the exception. The narrative is not what the true-crime community is promoting. And I love to see its course correct. And there are people in true crime, very few, but there are people in true crime that I have a lot of respect for.

I don’t know if commodification was the right word, but I compared it recently to vaping. Used to, you had to go to buy a vape, you had to go out of your way to buy the vape. Now everybody’s walking around with a vape in their hand, just hitting it. And it’s also, it’s a bigger conversation that I’m not really equipped to talk about of what it does to our brains. And that was something that I actually processed in EMDR therapy. My EMDR therapist was former law enforcement. And we talked about why people are obsessed with this. And the hit of the chemicals that we kind of get from…

Rebecca Elliott:

Yep. Altogether, it’s just neurotransmitters. It all boils down to that.

Emily Nestor:

Well, I think it’s fascinating. You know, you and I are the demographic. It’s white women of a certain age group.

Rebecca Elliott:

Mm-hmm. Oh, 100% percent.

Emily Nestor:

And why is that? No, why is that? That’s a great question.

Rebecca Elliott:

Yeah.

Chris Kasick:

What do you think?

Emily Nestor:

I don’t know-

Rebecca Elliott:

I don’t know either.

Emily Nestor:

I don’t know what to say. I think that there are multiple answers, and some of it is our own compartmentalized trauma. And it’s also this idea of maybe when you hear about something really bad happening to somebody, you can look at the things that have happened to you and been at least it wasn’t this. Or maybe if you learn these rules, it’s this-

Emily Nestor:

The false belief that you can protect yourself better.

Rebecca Elliott:

Right. Through cautionary tales or whatever.

Emily Nestor:

Yeah.

Chris Kasick:

Additionally, she’s really gone through a lot. This is a five-year thing for her. This was her youth into her twenties into adulthood. So, it’s unusual for documentaries to have an evolution like this, because usually documentaries are shot in six months, maybe a year. But this is a chunk of her life. It’s really weird listening because I’ve been editing for the last year and a half, and I’m like Old Emily. Old Emily. And then hearing a mature evolution of a lesson learned.

Emily Nestor:

I was 26 when I started the podcast, and I’ll be 32 in October.

Rebecca Elliott:

All things considered, it’s like Citizen Sleuth your own coming-of-age documentary.

Emily Nestor:

Yeah.

Chris Kasick:

You don’t usually get that. It’s like because it’s the time period on this. It just took that long for this evolution to happen. And so it’s interesting hearing you talk about it still.

Rebecca Elliott:

Simultaneously, you have these dueling narratives in Citizen Sleuth. Here you have this film on one hand. But then you also have Emily’s story on the other hand, and of course, it’s unfolding in real-time. As a documentary filmmaker, how do you find that story eventually? 

Chris Kasick:

You roll. We have over 500 hours of finishing audio on this, and it’s down to 90 minutes.

Rebecca Elliott:

Oh my god.

Chris Kasick:

It was like documenting what was happening. Document the journey, to her annoyance. Like, “What are you thinking right now? What are you feeling?” I have a camera. If there’s a light up and there’s a camera in the room, we’re on. We’re rolling. We need unguarded moments. And so it was this evolution of… like, putting a tire into the frame. What are we doing there? Action, Emily, can you do that over again?

Emily Nestor:

Yeah, what are you doing?

Rebecca Elliott:

I liked that touch!

Chris Kasick:

I’ve been a part of true crime stuff. And there’s a mechanism behind what you see. I just thought about the metal layer and when it was obvious this wasn’t a murder, everything was on the table. Telling this story of how the mechanics of these stories are told. And is there a larger truth that could be drawn from that? So my job as a documentary filmmaker, which wasn’t obvious at first, was I’m complicit in the genre. You’re complicit in it. You are. It’s not bad, it’s just we’re trying to understand it.

Chris Kasick:

And is pushing a tire showing a slate that we constructed a documentary around a constructive podcast, about a constructive crime?

Rebecca Elliott:

Likewise, filmmaking is manipulation. Essentially, you’re manipulating an emotion out of an audience.

Chris Kasick:

So it’s storytelling. It’s like we live by stories. From back during the caveman days, to now. It’s evolved from films to podcasts to sitting on a couch talking about it. She’s a storyteller. Her father writes mystery novels.

Emily Nestor:

He just self-published his first book.

Rebecca Elliott:

Nice!

Chris Kasick:

Yeah, like she comes from stories and I come from stories. It was ultimately this merging of fact and entertainment and storytelling that powerful, how powerful can a narrative be. And that’s sort of what we’re at. It’s like if there’s a false narrative in a community, can another narrative come in and overtake that? That’s where we’re at the conflict of entertainment of that. So it’s been a journey.

Rebecca Elliott:

Ultimately, Emily, when Citizen Sleuth and all this is behind you, do you see moving forward in the field? Would you study forensics? Have you considered going into law enforcement?

Emily Nestor:

So I’m going to be totally transparent, let’s put it on there.

Chris Kasick:

Yeah, go do it.

Emily Nestor:

At some point, I will end up going back to school. I had started taking criminology courses and finally found a major that I was super happy and this was fresh out of the pandemic. The timing was not… I was trying to do 18 things at once. Another character flaw is I try to take on too many things at one time.

Rebecca Elliott:

Indeed, I can relate.

Emily Nestor:

I’m learning to slow down. But I was actually in the hiring process for a while for a major police department, and I decided to sort of… I was acing all my tests, I was doing really well, and I sort of decided I wasn’t ready yet. Just I wanted to see where this was headed. And it’s something I’ll revisit. But I think that I don’t know, maybe the investigative reporting on any level… It’s the investigation part that fuels me. I love to run and box. I love to lift heavy weights. But also, I still want to work out my brain muscle a little bit more. And I don’t know.

Chris Kasick:

I hope she becomes a cop. She’s a cop. She thinks like a cop.

Rebecca Elliott:

Certainly, you have an affinity for it.

Emily Nestor:

We’ll see. We’ll see.

Rebecca Elliott:

Well, I think that wraps it up nicely. Thank you again for meeting with me today to talk about Citizen Sleuth. I hope you guys have a great fest.

Emily Nestor:

Thank you. You too.

Chris Kasick:

Thanks.

Citizen Sleuth is screening twice more at SXSW 2023 on 3/14 and 3/17.

Read more Cinema Scholars interviews!

LINOLEUM: An Interview With Writer/Director Colin West

UNSEEN: An Interview With Director Yoko Okumura

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